Author Topic: Watching out for 09 F1 cars  (Read 7072 times)

[SJ]Andy Fuller

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Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« on: November 15, 2008, 02:06:17 am »
I know it is a bit early for starting a thread about the 09 spec F1 cars, but since there will be such a large change in the rules, we have basicly ended the era of aero. What this next era will be, I do not know, but for sure it will be in a completly new direction with things like KERS, adjustable front wings, slick tires, and an overall design that should  :fingers crossed: allow for easier passing, and as a result, better racing.

KERS will be a very interesting technology to watch because of the differences in how some teams may use it. It is known that BMW will be using batteries to store the energy. Rummors have it that McLaren will be using a flywheel in a vaccum to store energy. Some teams like Ferarri and Force India are even talking about not using KERS, as it will add weight and is not manditory. (since Force India has signed the deal with McLaren for the powertrain, it looks like they will be using what McLaren is using for KERS)

Some drivers have been saying that with the tires, KERS may become a problem for heavier drivers. Since the tires no longer have groves, the front tires now have more grip than before in relationship with the rear tires. This means that the current cars would have oversteer with the slicks on. KERS will add weight to the car, but it will all be in the rear. With an oversteery car, you want weight in the front. This will put a very tight squeeze on balast, and how they can use it.

The new front and rear wings, and rear diffuser have been shown recently by the williams team on their 08 car:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/people/281539/first-sight-f1-2009-front-wing.html
The car looks a bit odd with the high narrow rear wing, but the front one looks great. Remeber that the 09 car will have a smooth body and wider wheel track, so this is realy just a teaser.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:27:56 am by [SJ]Andy Fuller »

[SJ]ski9600

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 04:18:14 am »
Well, the front wing pic looks ok to me.  A lot less angle on it in that pic, but it also had rain tyres so I'd imagine they can crank the wing up from that position.

So far as KERS, I'm worried about driver safety.  It seems to me that you'll end up with a few heavy components and trying to find space in the car.  Now, your mention that the elimination of grooves is going to move more traction to the front indicates to me that they'd try to move as much weight to the front as possible (as they always have).  As you all know, there is hardly enough room there for feet, so having heavy components up front invites trouble.

Has anyone read the regs for the new wing?  Maybe they've planned in a space (below the driver's legs maybe?) for some additional weight and space?

Cheers,
Ski

[SJ]nissan man

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 04:57:58 am »
wow does that look goofy on the narrow track, hopefully the wider track will balence it out :)

[SJ]Andy Fuller

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 05:25:21 am »
Well, the front wing pic looks ok to me.  A lot less angle on it in that pic, but it also had rain tyres so I'd imagine they can crank the wing up from that position.


Also remeber that the narrow rear wing can not provide the downforce that the old one could, and since the front wing is wider than the old one, they would want less angle because it could easily overpower the rear wing and make the car very unbalanced.

[SJ]Kristof Huyck

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 01:00:04 pm »
KERS will be a very interesting technology to watch because of the differences in how some teams may use it. It is known that BMW will be using batteries to store the energy. Rummors have it that McLaren will be using a flywheel in a vaccum to store energy. Some teams like Ferarri and Force India are even talking about not using KERS, as it will add weight and is not manditory. (since Force India has signed the deal with McLaren for the powertrain, it looks like they will be using what McLaren is using for KERS)


I've read that Ferrari say that the development of their KERS system is behind schedule, but they'll use it. Toyota on the other hand won't use it in the beginning of next season. The teams rumored to be ahead of the others in regards to KERS are BMW & Honda. However, we have to wait & see until the first 2009 test sessions to have an idea.

[SJ]Jarkko Rantajoki

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 03:15:14 pm »
Craziest thing is the front wing adjustment... Drivers can adjust front wing 2 times each lap.. maximum of 3 degree adjustment at once..

[SJ]Jarkko Rantajoki

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 12:58:11 pm »
These look kinda cool.. aggressive.





[SJ]RockyC

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 02:43:23 pm »
WOW!!!  :jawdrop: The BMW is crazy! lol :)

[SJ]FAR

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 03:25:44 pm »
 :jawdrop:

Found also some pictures today...

[SJ]Andy Fuller

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2008, 02:14:37 am »
Wow, that BMW is different looking. Nice to see our first shots of what an 09 F1 car will look like so soon.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 02:42:26 am by [SJ]Andy Fuller »

[SJ]Gooseman

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2008, 02:51:51 am »
well, just interim cars. cant say im a fan of the bmw. The Williams looks cool. Heres a front end shot of Hondas interim car.
http://motorsport.com/photos/f1/2008/tes/f1-2008-tes-xp-5457.jpg

[SJ]Jarkko Rantajoki

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2008, 05:01:20 pm »
Ok, heres something that most likely happens for next season also..
Medals for driver championship.

Win gets you gold medal.. second silver etc.. the champ will be whoever has won most races.
Team champ will be decided with points. FIA and all teams wanna see it happen, and Bernie is trying to make it happen so i wont be surprised if we really see it next season.

[SJ]Andy Fuller

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2008, 03:08:31 am »
TBH, I am more partial to a point system, it is what has always been used to determine the champion in F1 and almost all other major racing series. They do need to make winning mean more though, it could make the racing for the win better.

But if they do go to that system and it is able to bring that racing for the win out more, then it would be a good thing, so I would not mind trying it.

Would anything change in the constructors championship?

[SJ]nissan man

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2008, 06:37:09 am »
seems like a weird way to decide a whole seasons worth of racing. you need to take the good with the bad during the season. if Ferrari wants their man on top, just don't fuck up so much, it's easy. the whole thing sounds like sour grapes.

[SJ]Jarkko Rantajoki

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2008, 01:20:16 pm »
All i know is that ALL teams want it to happen. :dunno:
The team champ would be still decided with points apparently.

[SJ]Sh1te R1der

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 11:36:31 pm »
Seems Bernie is very confident that the medal system will be adopted for next season.  So as I understand things, if somebody wins one race, but doesn't finish another race all season, he will still be classified higher than somebody who finishes every Grand Prix in second place. 

I foresee a number of issues with this system, not least of which will be teams contracting their drivers to finish behind the team leader, even in the first race of the season.  Using McLaren as an example, it is clear that Hamilton has the beating of his team-mate, and I would anticipate this situation will continue next season; if Kovalainen is leading the first Grand Prix ahead of Hamilton, bearing in mind that he is unlikely to mount a season-long challenge, it is not inconceivable that he will be told to move over, as a silver medal is less valuable to Hamilton than the 8 points he would have earned under the current system.  Same for Renault, but less clear at teams where both drivers are closely matched; at what point do you tell a driver he must defer? If Raikonnen wins the first 2 Grand Prix, and Hamilton wins the next 2, what of Massa; if he is leading race 5 with Raikonnen in second, is he told to move aside, as his team-mate is better placed to challenge Ferrari's rival for the title?

It has been claimed that the medal system will encourage overtaking, but I am not convinced.  While 1st, 2nd and 3rd may take a few risks to obtain the gold, what incentive is there for 6th to try for 5th?  Constructors points maybe, but this is and will always be a very poor second in terms of importance, and is unlikely to prove a big motivator.  Perhaps they should extend the medals; say a brass for 4th, tin for 5th all the way down to baking foil for 8th!     

F1 clams to be at the cutting edge of technology; why then would it consider adopting such a facile scoring system.  I really enjoyed the nip and tuck of this season, with great recovery drives from both Massa and Hamilton, minimising their rivals advantages after poor qualifying, bad starts, penalties and so on, all of which kept the championship going until the last corner of the last race.  After such a fascinating season, I can see no good reason to change what is not broken; one sure thing is that Bernie Ecclestone is going to have to twist a lot of arms, and work his stewards very hard to ensure he can manipulate the results to bring about another thrilling climax next year.

[SJ]Kristof Huyck

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 11:46:40 pm »
If this system was adopted this year Massa would have won the championship btw.

[SJ]Sh1te R1der

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 11:56:19 pm »
Indeed, although there are many who would argue that he didn't actually win at Spa!  :biggrin:

[SJ]DRokK

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2008, 12:28:07 am »
if we adopted this system here at simjunkies, id already have enough tinfoil to make sh1te a pair of pants!  :biggrin:

[SJ]tromoly

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2008, 12:33:44 am »
Indeed, although there are many who would argue that he didn't actually win at Spa!  :biggrin:


I don't like the whole medal system to begin with, but if it does get implemented and the stewards go off on their penalty rampage like this past season, then I'm done watching F1, there's been way too many mistakes that made last season a big cluster-[expletive deleted].

Anyways, I'm not a fan of the interim cars yet, hopefully the 09 cars will look much better [read: not a mule of the 08 cars with 09 regulations on winglets and whatnot].

[SJ]RockyC

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2008, 01:01:12 am »
If this system was adopted this year Massa would have won the championship btw.

Yeah, but probably not because the drivers and teams would have raced differently. So, no way to tell who would have won.

[SJ]Kristof Huyck

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2008, 01:09:26 am »
If this system was adopted this year Massa would have won the championship btw.

Yeah, but probably not because the drivers and teams would have raced differently. So, no way to tell who would have won.


True, but Mclaren already adopted a number 1 driver system which suits this medal system perfectly, while Ferrari had 2 candidates for the race wins until the last few GP's. Anyway, it doesn't matter that much as I think this new system not the right way to go. Just award the winner 11 points instead of 10 would be a better change imo.

[SJ]Andy Fuller

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 01:47:38 am »
http://formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/335.html

The F1 teams are currently testing at Jerez, the link is to pictures of that test so far, and at the bottom they have McLarens new front wing and new wheel covers. Thing wing looks similar to the others (not realy too much room to be different), but the wheel covers are very unusual. I could see this design quicly being banned as a movable areo device, but then they would have to ban all wheel covers. Strange if these fly, but a mass damper is considered a moveable areo device.

[SJ]ski9600

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 03:35:16 am »
If this system was adopted this year Massa would have won the championship btw.


Also, if this was adopted for Nascrap Busch would've won. thumbs up

[SJ]ski9600

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Re: Watching out for 09 F1 cars
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 03:44:38 am »
http://formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/335.html

The F1 teams are currently testing at Jerez, the link is to pictures of that test so far, and at the bottom they have McLarens new front wing and new wheel covers. Thing wing looks similar to the others (not realy too much room to be different), but the wheel covers are very unusual. I could see this design quicly being banned as a movable areo device, but then they would have to ban all wheel covers. Strange if these fly, but a mass damper is considered a moveable areo device.


I'm looking at the very last picture in the link.  I'm thinking that of course the car will be fast, but with the wing out there so far on the front towards the outside line of the wheels it'll be really easy to knock it off.  And then you'll need to pit because when it comes off.   It'll probably go all the way to the keel/centerline of the car.  This doesn't promote close racing.  thumbs down  (Otherwise, it seems it'll look fine on TV and stuff  thumbs up )