Author Topic: Helpline... 1800WTF!  (Read 5790 times)

[SJ]Dion Holzheimer

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Helpline... 1800WTF!
« on: January 19, 2007, 01:50:16 pm »
I started racing against Humans (abeit never on the track at the same time, just time trails) back in 2003 with GT3 on PS2. At the time i thought i was very fast and knew it all (I just turned 15) As you can see from my result in my 1st race i was far from it. From then on its been a steady climb to where I am today. Over that time ive asked many many questions and read a lot on driving and techniques. But most of all ive practise a lot. Ive been racing somewhat "seriously" for 2yrs now, by serious i mean taking gaming as a hobby and trying to improve. I do not play hours upon hours, but over the course of a week or month it adds up. a Bit here a Bit their etc. Anyway enough of my blabbering i just wanted to point out that i wasnt always "alien" (I dont think Iam yet, still too many people faster :p) and i started off as a normal earthling. So just like many guys have helped me along my way im willing to help others, who wish to improve or get faster, or if they simply have a question and want an answer (in relation to GTL/driving, no smartarse comments please lol )

Well im all out of ideas for new articles and i dont want to see this area go to waste. So many people are improving and I think the races are much better for it. Many people are now able to control their cars very well, which make racing and having closer battles much more exciting and frequent. Im sure a few of you guys "want" to improve so if you have any questions ask away.

I'm by no means a "know-it-all" or a "grand-master" but i think with Confuser, T Hez's and others we can come close to a "Mr Miyagi" for GTL.

So if you guys have any questions on driving or anything then just ask and I will do my best to answer. If the question is popular and demands a big answer than i could even turn it into an article of some sort.

Dion Holzheimer


[SJ]Stein

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 04:54:03 pm »
Got one for yah:


How to beat T-hez??.. hehehe

i know i'm not the fastest, but then again i dont take it too seriously m8, the tips and tricks is cool with me m8.

I just race and see what it comes to, it seems i'm on the top of the middlesection at times. I can keep up for a few laps with the faster guys, cuz most of the times i do the quali on a full tank of gas, which also means i KNOW how the car will handle with the colder tires under full fuelload. That's why i'm pretty fast in the first 1 or 2 laps.. then i just slowly let the fast blokes go, because of my focus dropping also, and maybe that bit of adrenaline that is felt with close racing.  Also depends if i truly like the track and the car i'm driving.


rattling on like you, but hey.. a little something about my state of mind...


but.. if yer trailing me.. i'm trying to push on and on and just lose it.. so why worry.. i just let them go, points is not important to me at all, it's the unscaved car at the end of the race that is my whole concern


woof ~ Woof


[SJ]Kristof Huyck

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 04:56:56 pm »
Got one for yah:


How to beat T-hez??.. hehehe


That's impossible  lol

Next question please  :tut:

[SJ]Jarkko Rantajoki

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 05:01:59 pm »

How to beat T-hez??.. hehehe






with a bat?  lol

[SJ]Stein

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 05:04:14 pm »
bat.. probbly...  :excited:

wouldnot amaze me if he morphed to another room as i swing the bat  :argh:


Woof ~ Woof

[SJ]T Hez

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 05:20:04 pm »
What the...  :innocent:

[SJ]Tornado

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 05:39:43 pm »
"With gr8 power comes gr8 responsibility"  lol , spidermans uncle  lol

Seat time, seat time , seat time , and did i say seat time, then practice, and practice, then practice some more.

Dont worry Toine , we ARE coming !!!! Slowly but surely m8  :peace out:

 :toker:

p.s. You always give me something to shoot at, err for/towards lol , that didnt sound right , and bring me back to earth , ciao .

 :toker:

[SJ]Dion Holzheimer

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2007, 02:51:08 pm »
How to beat T-hez??.. hehehe


Practise and Consistency.

Mr Hez has it refined to an art. I will do my best in SJC to see where i stand :D, who knows maybe a miracle will happen lol

[SJ]Minorshunt

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2007, 03:43:55 pm »
Practice and consistency are overrated. Where's the fun in that?  lol

I do have a 1800WTF question though. In GTL, What can you do in setup to stop snap oversteer under heavy braking? Sometimes I luck into a setup that seems to control it, but most times it seems I'm fighting the ass end coming round especially in trailbraking.

Miyagi-sans?

[SJ]Stein

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 07:17:28 pm »
lol... trailbraking is the cause of the snapping.. and you do set your brakebalance that far forward so you can trailbrake.. or do i understand the question wrong..


i dont trailbrake that much.. or that serious as some of the lad, so i think my answer wont help you that much anyways...

brakebalance forward..

Might also be dependant on car and fuelload, since some cars have the tank in the back others in the front.. some cars are generally heavier on the back anyways... but ill leave the real answer to the experts...


Woof ~ Woof


[SJ]Kristof Huyck

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 07:35:04 pm »
To trailbrake you have to set the brake balance a bit more towards the rear!

I'm not the expert, but maybe you could try to raise the (Diff.) Coast setting and also make sure the brake balance is only a bit more towards the rear (not too much)

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2007, 07:51:40 pm »
Alternatively to Confusers answer, you could try a little more throttle on as you brake.
The effect mentioned of rear coming around under brakes was common in GPL using aggressive diff ramps. To combat it, using some throttle while getting the car slowed with the brake will help. If you dont want to change your setup to something less agressive (In this case diff ramps), you will need to adapt your driving style, which in the long run will be quicker, it just takes alot of practise...it is worth it

[SJ]Riven

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2007, 10:33:24 pm »
Also some of the cars in GTL dont auto-blip enough when you change down, especially the GT40.

Personally, I dont use auto-blip or auto-clutch, but if you do, you can still help it a little by  stabbing the gas on each downshift.  This will stop the difflock when chaning down on the brakes and not enough revs on to match the new gear.

[SJ]Dion Holzheimer

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 10:55:13 pm »
Agree with all of the above ^^, Here would be the order i would try personally.

1) If you dont already, try to use manual clutch and make sure your blipping the gas on each downshift.

2) Try to apply some throttle while braking (minor throttle)

3) If all of the above isnt working then try moving the brake balance forward a tad (if the rear wheels arent locking then .5 should do it). This is definetly useful for downhill braking.

4) while i dont use this option of confusers (hence i put it last) im sure you can try it too, Raising the coast in the diff, im still a bit of a newb in settings and generally just adjust small things here and their but mainly just concentrate on driving the car how it is.

[SJ]Minorshunt

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 12:09:41 am »
Wow! Nice to hear so many options!  :)

1.) I use manual gears and clutch with no auto blip. So I stab the throttle a bit each down shift. But if I miss the stab like yesterday in the elite on the first lap, it just started coming right around which is the reason for this question. Seems like I'm always fighting the handling.

2.) I used to use a bit of throttle while braking in GT4, but have not done it in GTL. Will indeed practice on that!

3.) Brakes rearward. Kinda scared of that one although it makes sense. Will test a doing a little bit at a time.

4.) Diff settings. I usually have coast setting fairly high. Up to 80 or so sometimes and it does help....but sometimes makes it hard to turn in and get the nose where I want it. I guess it depends on the car. Right?

I watched the replay of Confuser at Zandvoort in the GT40, and just couldn't come to grips with how fast he was and his braking technique which was completely different from what I was doing. (stab, pray, correct, correct again, hang on) haha! So it's something that's been on my mind for a couple weeks. I seem to have reached a plateau, and want to take it to the next level if I can.

Thanks for the suggestions guys and gal! I appreciate it and will do some testing to try and figure some of it out.  :salute:

Steve

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 12:49:23 am »
High coast will give more stable under braking, but not as easy to turn in, as you found.
Reduce coast and get that trail braking practised and you will get the best of both worlds and may even learn to be able to rotate the car into the turn with the brakes...now that really takes practise and alot of online offs.

[SJ]Dion Holzheimer

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 01:45:57 am »
3.) Brakes rearward. Kinda scared of that one although it makes sense. Will test a doing a little bit at a time.


Actually, you want the brakes as rear ward as possible, however in your case maybe they are TOO FAR rearward, thus move them to the front a bit more, try .5 incriments until your satisfied.

its a pity we cant get motec like readings on the brake pedal in GTL, it would be interesting to compare yourself to say confusers GT40 driving.

[SJ]T Hez

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 03:53:51 pm »
Actually, you want the brakes as rear ward as possible, however in your case maybe they are TOO FAR rearward, thus move them to the front a bit more, try .5 incriments until your satisfied.


Not necessarily...
If you want to "steer" the car with the brakes you obviously have to apply enough braking power to the rear. However, under heavy braking the car's nose will dive. More weight is shifted to the front wheels and you can apply more braking power to them. Taking full advantage of this will minimize your braking distance. With most of the cars I try to determine that braking bias where the front wheels lock. For trailbraking I shift the bias (a bit) more to the rear, but not as much as possible ( => very unstable under braking or overcompensate for this by making the setup worse).


its a pity we cant get motec like readings on the brake pedal in GTL, it would be interesting to compare yourself to say confusers GT40 driving.


That would take away alot of the charm of driving these classics imo.

[SJ]Dion Holzheimer

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 12:15:31 am »
That would take away alot of the charm of driving these classics imo.


Your right...

But it would be cool to see our brake and gas graph driving say a pantera or cobra over a lap of spa.

[SJ]Satain

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 12:20:39 am »
Here's how mine would go...

0-50kmph 2seconds
50-100 8 seconds
100-0 10 seconds
*Pumps brakes then screams wildly*

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2007, 08:45:59 am »
Here's how mine would go...

0-50kmph 2seconds
50-100 8 seconds
100-0 10 seconds
*Pumps brakes then screams wildly*



LOL I would have thought more like

0-50 2 seconds
50-100 3 seconds
100-0 instantaneoulsy (Walls have that effect) hehehehe

[SJ]Minorshunt

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2007, 10:38:12 am »
Walls are a very effective braking device agreed. hehe.

Something T Hez said kinda klicked though. About using natural weight transfer to the front to minimize braking distance.
So do you make adjustments to weight transfer and hence braking with springs and ride height? 

[SJ]Stein

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2007, 06:10:09 pm »
Awsome Sandy, exactly what i was thinking when i read his post.. hehe

Woof ~ Woof


[SJ]GT_Raycer

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2007, 06:55:15 pm »
Weight transfer under braking moves to the front, as does weight transfer moving to the back under acceleration...Interestingly, no one has mentioned the effect of damping settings here.

Higher damping (bump) will take more advantage of weight transfer in both braking + acceleration situations.

Spring weight also has an effect similar to bump damping.

And, to stretch the complications a bit more, consider that caster effects stablity (more=more stable at high speed...less=more stabilty + resposiveness at lower speeds [Or so I've read  lol ])

For me, setups are a matter of:

A) Having AT LEAST a basic understanding of what each setup option does, and how it relates to other settings...And,
B) A LOT of trial + error.

What I mean by "A)" is that, say, even tire temps indicate the widest possible contact patch to the asphalt, and therefor better grip from the tires...Affecting those can be..CAMBER, TOE-IN, TIRE PRESSURE...

Personal preferences also play a large role in creating your "perfect" setup...I, for instance, prefer not to have to work the wheel too much, and so my steering rates might be higher than others'.

Bearing in mind that I'm one of the SLOWER (slowest?) guys in SJ, i recommend that you take MY advice the same as I recommend you take ANY advice...As GENERAL suggestions to put you on the path to finding the best way for YOU.

 :salute:

[SJ]Byron

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2007, 07:28:38 pm »
Well put, Ray.  This is turning into a very informative thread.  :)

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2007, 07:34:20 pm »
Another thing on weight transfer, I tend to use soft springs where I can, in any sim. I do this for a couple of reasons.
1. to help get good traction out of turns, to help with terminal velocity on the straight.
2. to help get the weight to come forward to help shorten the braking distance.

Another bonus that seems to come from the above is the tires tend to last a while driving at 10/10ths. I did a 48 min race yesterday in the FIA GT mod at Daytona, and was able to lap at my qualifying times or better for the entire race, except for when it was dark and I couldnt see.

How much and how fast the weight transfers I adjust with dampers (Bump and rebound)

I try to use an agressive diff to get the front end of the car turned in during cornering, which also helps to maintain good momentum through the turns. The down side is you have to be very delicate with the throttle..when I learned to drive on the track I was told to imagine egg shells under my feet and that I was driving on ice with slicks. It seemed to work and transfer across to Simming.

I dont know all the technical reasons for doing what I do to a setup, but I find my theory works for me. My setup theories come from when I was building my own setups for GPL 65 mod, which alot of other people found very stable and I managed to get a few world records with.

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2007, 07:38:29 pm »
I thought I would include text from a file I picked up at Kiwisimracing. I think it was put together by Bazzil over there, so thanks mate.

Road Car Setup Guide
Most of this is taken from the GTR manual but I've taken out the useful bits

Understeer in medium / high speed turns
-reduce the front ride height
-reduce the rear wing

Spin on corner exit under power
-soften the rear slow bump (over doing this setting will produce understeer)
-loosen the rear anti-roll bar
-decrease the differential lock
-increase the front slow rebound
-stiffen the front anti-roll bar

Car looses grip on bumpy areas of the road
-soften the springs
-soften rear slow bump and fast bump

Understeer on corner entry
-soften the front slow bump
-stiffen the rear slow rebound

Oversteer on corner entry
-stiffen the front slow bump
-soften the rear slow rebound

My tires wear out quickly
-choose harder compound tires
-soften up the springs

Understeer at low speed / oversteer at high speed
-soften front anti-roll
-increase rear wing

Setting up your car for bumpy areas of the track (riding the curbs etc):

Understeer while going over bumps
-Soften the front fast bump
-Soften the front fast rebound

Oversteer while going over bumps
-Soften the rear fast bump
-Soften the rear fast rebound

If your car doesn't seem to notice the bumps
(if your car doesn't notice the bumps it means your car is not settling down fast enough after the bumps)
-you need to stiffen up all fast bump and fast rebound

If your car skates out from the bumps (neither end first)
-you need to soften all fast bump and fast rebound

The differential lock
A low differential lock will mean the outside and inside tires will lock together much earlier - a high differential lock has the opposite effect
power diff is the diff lock under acceleration
coast diff is the diff lock when off the throttle

camber / tire temperatures / tire pressures
Tire temperatures should be within a range of 10 across a tire (even temps across the tire is better) eg:112 108 103
-more camber will give you hotter inside than outside
-increase the tire pressure to raise the middle tire temperature

Anti-Roll bars
-stiffer front anti roll bar generates understeer
-stiffer rear anti roll bar generates oversteer
-stiff anti roll bars make a more rigid chassi but increase tire wear
-the front anti roll bar should be about 70% more than the rear

[SJ]Minorshunt

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2007, 11:20:07 pm »
PRINTED! Great info Ray and Sandy. :salute: I always set up for comfort and ease of driving. Mostly by feel. But that's not necessarily the fastest setup. This really helps clarify things.

If no one minds, I have another area of questions Sandy touched on briefly. ie tire temps and pressure.

What do you look for in tire temps? Per the above, you are trying for a setup that is ideally all temps close to the same across the tire, but how about the temp difference between front and rear? Do you want to see say 198 degrees F. front and back or will the rears naturally be hotter? And what is the ideal temp? What is too cold or too hot? Also do you want to match your tire pressure front and rear to compensate for the increase in pressure due to heating? What is the ideal pressure at temp?

Hope ya'll don't mind the many questions.  :)
Steve

sandyk

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2007, 12:03:02 am »
thats a tough question. Like real tires, different sims and different mods have different physics data, therefore that cant be answered simply by saying XX F temp is ideal. Depends on the car, tires and mod. I try to get a balance of temps across the tires..in rFactor you can get away with 10 C hotter on the inside than the outside and thats what I try to aim for...what temp is ideal, as above, its not a simple question to answer.

[SJ]Minorshunt

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2007, 01:51:20 am »
Ok Sandy. I just saw the tire thread below this one, (doh!) and think that thread answers my questions quite nicely. Thanks again for your responses!  :)
Steve

[SJ]KL Mallender

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Re: Helpline... 1800WTF!
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2007, 07:59:30 pm »
Many thanks to all who contributed the information in this discussion, It is very helpfull to us that are new the "Sport" of PC Racing.

thx, Kevin.